Adventures in Odyssey Wiki:Town Hall

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100,000 Edits · Episodes Project

Information.png This page is for discussions related to the wiki. To add a new topic, click here.
Please post Adventures in Odyssey related questions here.

The Town Hall is a place where users can meet and discuss larger changes to the wiki, such as policy proposals and new ways of displaying and organizing information. It serves as a way for users to be involved without having to find a relevant discussion page. Please be constructive and courteous when corresponding with fellow editors and add new discussion topics at the bottom of the page.

Pets

Now that we have a mentioned section in the Cast section of episodes and in the Character Infobox, would anyone be opposed to using the Infobox Character Infomation on pet pages? The type would be pet and they would have a first mentioned episode and a last mentioned episode.

P.S. If this is something we think should/could be done the type field would create a Pet Characters category unless altered. Is this okay, or should we put an if statement in the template to just use Category:Pets? Stop Wooton' Around (talk) 09:22, 18 May 2018 (MDT)

I would vote for a whole different Infobox Pet template. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 20:04, 18 May 2018 (MDT)
I second that. 2 votes for another infobox. ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 21:56, 18 May 2018 (MDT)
Whoever decides to work on this, perhaps Template:Episode Mentioned could look like this for #7: “Promises, Promises”:
Character Mentioned By
June Kendall Connie Kendall
Bill Kendall Connie Kendall
Marcy Connie Kendall
Animal Mentioned By
Kitty Connie Kendall
Edit: doing it would mess up the "sortable" function, however. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 07:07, 20 May 2018 (MDT)
Having a pet page would be awesome! Ikwid (talk) 13:22, 3 July 2018 (MDT)

I am fine with adding all pets to the Episodes "Mentioned" list as a non-speaking Character. I think that is an appropriate place where the cast list never was. ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2018 (MDT) On the Other Hand, Sherman Page is just not right without Video Appearances... how can we fix that? ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 19:24, 21 August 2018 (MDT)

Can't we do it the same way we do episode appearances? With a category? (I tried to make categories but it's not working right) ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 09:41, 22 August 2018 (MDT)
Nope, because doing that treats animals the same way as characters. They should be kept separate. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 14:03, 22 August 2018 (MDT)
Not to be argumentative, but isn't a pet still a character? ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 15:17, 22 August 2018 (MDT)
Um...I really don’t want to argue about this...but...the answer is...No. Not in this context. AIOrocks101 (talk) 16:39, 22 August 2018 (MDT)


They are already Characters, I'm just trying to figure out a way to yes categorize and show that on the Character Page but it doesn't have to be on the Cast List on the Episode Page. Specifically for Sherman, Jasper, Josephine, Napoleon, Bernice, Video Series Pets. They "Appeared" in those videos and their "Character" Likeness is on Products, that makes them Characters. just like any other non-speaking character or "Extra" would be technically "Uncredited" in a movie. they may not be in the "credits" but they will put it on their resume/IMDB as an uncredited part. A lot of the Others I am fine With a "Mentioned" although some could be argued they "appear" Boswell, Ferguson, Rachel, Little Joe, they even have a "Speaking" part or more accurately they are "Heard" in the episode, but again I'm fine with a credit in the "Mentioned" list. that will at least define what episodes they are mentioned in and grow those Pet Character pages with some factual data, and nearly automated witch is better than incomplete state the pet pages are in now. ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 19:27, 22 August 2018 (MDT)
While they do appear, they are not made in God's image, cannot have character development, and are most often sound effects. It would confuse me to see them listed alongside characters. Besides, Whit's End has appeared in videos and its likeness is on products, but I don't believe you would classify it as a character. Could we fix any issues by simply creating {{Infobox Animal}} and {{Episode Animals}}? (I would say that Red Hollard's bird in #745: “Like a Good Neighbor” is an exception... hmm.) Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 09:46, 23 August 2018 (MDT)

Why? because it says something? Crackers is a full blown character because he talks? the very appearance in an episode makes them a character just like on a TV series even if they never "say" a word, sometimes the pets are bigger stars than the people. Garfield, Beethoven, Underdog, "Lucky" on ALF, the character appearance and mentioned is a viable tracking and the appearance is as well, there is nothing un-spiritual about it's a fictional show anyway. ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 18:46, 29 November 2018 (MST)

Castles and Cauldrons

Information.png
The contents of this section are hidden to save space. Click on this notice to view.

Let me be clear: I am not against all role-playing games. I am, however, against Castles & Cauldrons and Dungeons & Dragons. The former I am against due to the demonic occult nature of it, and the latter I am against due to the inevitable addiction to it. That said, the writers of the page (Caswin, 198.190.212.150), against the edits of others (Meyouthemus, AIONerdyGuy) have written a page that seems to glorify the game while putting down the episode for being inaccurate. Focus's stance on Dungeons & Dragons has not changed ([1]), and they have said, quote:

…the game as actually constructed includes some strongly occultic elements. Some former devotees testify that their involvement with "D & D" brought them into contact with demonic activity.

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/parenting/parental-concerns-about-dungeons-and-dragons

The Castles and Cauldrons page, on the other hand, says:

…it also appears to have elements … that are extraordinarily unusual for such a game, or any game released on the open market. This might be an attempt to demonize ALL Role-Playing games to make listeners, especially young children, believe that such games are evil.

No, no. Whit's quote below contradicts this. My Logic professor plays a Christian-based "role-playing game" with his students that involves fighting radioactive lobsters, and I hear it's fun. Without the Christian worldview, delving into an addicting fantasy is dangerous.

The page goes on to say:

Unfortunately … Len showed difficulty distinguishing the game from reality and generally took its events extremely seriously, with dangerous results. This makes his claims about the game and its rules difficult to judge.

— Italics added

I disagree. I believe that Castles & Cauldrons was meant to be played the way Len portrayed it. Other parts of the article mention how Castles & Cauldrons was different from "other games" and therefore Len was probably exaggerating it. This is inconsistent with the writing and plotline of the episode.

Len's copy of Castles & Cauldrons came with the following items, which looked impressive bundled together in a bag:

"Looked impressive" according to Jimmy. Not according to Focus.

In Len's copy, these "other things" included a "Board of Talisman", which could supposedly predict the future.
Whether using the board in a ritual involving using Donna Barclay's doll to summon one of the game's characters was originally intended as a part of the game is not clear.
Information.png
Hidden are two satanic terms.

This I clearly understood to be voodoo and a Ouija board. This is absolutely satanic.

…it had an unusual wrinkle in the way players were apparently assigned characters rather than being allowed to design their own (see below).

As a live-action game, rather than a "pen & paper" setup…
…many role-playing games run fights according to clearly-defined rules and statistics…

All of these are references to Dungeons & Dragons, which is interestingly never directly mentioned in the article.

The last three sections of the article go into detail about the game's characters, players, and popularity, which I see to be glorifying the game (in the small sense of the word "glorify").

It seems like this article, along with a note on the episode pages that claims the episode "has been criticized for presenting a distorted and inaccurate picture of role-playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons", is portraying Dungeons & Dragons as good and Focus's portrayal as bad. But are the article writers forgetting Whit's comment in part 2?

Some of the role-playing games may be silly and harmless, but a few of them are more than that. They start off innocent enough, then with time they turn into something dangerous. …They begin to consume the player's life.

No matter what, Len's behavior as described by George, his cagey actions around Whit, and Whit's comment are ALMOST EXACTLY the same as one of my friends who plays D&D. This is an emotional issue for me. There are still problems with the real-life game, spiritual side or not. If possible, I'd like to see a role-playing game episode that focuses on the addiction side of the problem. In the meantime, I ask your advice and consent to overhaul the Castles and Cauldrons page. Thanks.

Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 12:43, 20 May 2018 (MDT)

After reading your thoughts on it, I can say that I agree with you. Yes go ahead and change the page. I'd say try to keep any biased out of it. That page should just be about the C&C game used in two episodes. However we can clearly articulate FotF's position about this type of game. Just the way it starts out "This might be an attempt to demonize ALL Role-Playing games to make listeners, especially young children, believe that such games are evil." is plain wrong. If anything we should be saying that C&C was a fictional game FotF made up biased off of other rpgs. The whole point of the episode(s) were to warn about the demonic nature of these types of games. We in no way should have a page that contradicts that.
Oh you might want to take a look at the Len Barclay page too. Aiow 07:55, 21 May 2018 (MDT)

Pages needing work

I think that we should have a "Pages needing work" page. Jason13579 Jasonwhittaker-2.png (talk) (Guestbook) (Email Me) Sandbox
job 3:22He said:
09:38, 21 May 2018 (MDT)
There is a category, Category:Pages needing work. Stop Wooton' Around (talk) 18:19, 21 May 2018 (MDT)

30th Birthday Live Show

Huzzah! The live show has been released! …And the episode has the same name as the album. Should we make two pages: 30th Birthday Live Show and 30th Birthday Live Show (album)? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 14:21, 14 June 2018 (MDT)

Hmm, Probably. It kind of makes sense to do it that way.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 17:25, 14 June 2018 (MDT)
Anyone else? Crnel, Stop Wooton Around, Rachel Maxwell, what do you think? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 14:33, 21 June 2018 (MDT)
+1 for making two separate pages. Micro-albums like this should be differentiated from the episodes they feature. Often times the albums feature extra content in addition to the episodes (e.g., the 500th Episode (sampler album) which has a bit of extra interview material after the episode). Crnel (talk) 14:42, 21 June 2018 (MDT)

how do I...

how do I make a logo like you guys have done?
proverbs 15:11A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Jasoniscool Jasonwhittaker-3.png ~ talk ~
psalm 1:66For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
(Guestbook) sandbox
john 3:1616"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
23:57, 14 June 2018 (MDT)
There used to be scripts for quite a few episodes but they had disappeared so where did they go? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agent.MontyWhittaker (talkcontribs)
With the logo, we downloaded files from the wiki and used Adobe Photoshop and Pixlr.com. I would please ask you to refrain from uploading your own logo, however, as we created it for the express purpose of sending it to Reddo after he gave me the go-ahead to draft a new one. With the scripts, I deleted all of them after Nathan Hoobler asked me to. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 07:26, 16 June 2018 (MDT)


New album and book titles

I put some new information up. I know it need some editing so if Scientific Guy could help me with that, that would be great. Aioduck29 (talk) 20:23, 19 June 2018 (MDT)
OH MY GOODNESS! Our AIO insider has struck again! Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 14:28, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
I like when I have a good reason to use the spoiler banner :) Aioduck29 (talk) 14:30, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
If you don't mind my asking, where did you get the info about 66 and the two books? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 14:38, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
The meeting we had last Thursday. Aioduck29 (talk) 14:39, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
Do you happen to have images of the covers? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 14:41, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
I saw them I just couldn't get those yet. Probably next meeting or so. Aioduck29 (talk) 14:42, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
Can you email me? I can tell you more that way. Aioduck29 (talk) 14:46, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
After emailing, I've removed a certain person from the album description, since he wasn't directly mentioned during the meeting. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 16:06, 20 June 2018 (MDT)

please...

please tell me something I can do! I want to do something. I said it on the town hall so everyone would hear.
proverbs 15:11A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Jasoniscool Jasonwhittaker-3.png ~ talk ~
psalm 1:66For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
(Guestbook) sandbox
john 3:1616"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
22:41, 19 June 2018 (MDT)
If you need something to do you can create wanted pages in Special:WantedPages Or you could create wanted categories. You can also work on Category:Stubs (Type it in the search bar. The link won't work at the moment) ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 10:29, 20 June 2018 (MDT)
Okay, if you really want to... Add information to these pages: Category:Character stubs. It would be a BIG help! Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 14:33, 21 June 2018 (MDT)

No more {prev} and {next}!

I've edited Template:Infobox Episode Information to finally remove the {{{prev}}} and {{{next}}} variables from episode pages! If you'd like to help, remove the parameters and make sure the preview is identical to the page. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 07:46, 1 July 2018 (MDT)

Mr. Skint?

On the cover of Trial by Fire, there is a mysterious man in the bushes. Could it be Mr. Skint? He matches Penny's description in the Green Ring Conspiracy. You should also see File:66front.jpg Jason13579 Jasonwhittaker-2.png (talk) (Guestbook) (Email Me) Sandbox
job 3:22He said:
07:11, 12 July 2018 (MDT)
I'm pretty sure it is Mr. Skint, but it hasn't been completely confirmed so we can't say that it is quite yet. I hope that answers your question.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 11:46, 12 July 2018 (MDT)
It does, thanks! Jason13579 Jasonwhittaker-2.png (talk) (Guestbook) (Email Me) Sandbox
job 3:22He said:
05:52, 14 July 2018 (MDT)
You're Welcome.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 11:48, 14 July 2018 (MDT)

how do I...

How do I rank up to administrator?
proverbs 15:11A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Jasoniscool Jasonwhittaker-3.png ~ talk ~
psalm 1:66For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
(Guestbook) sandbox
john 3:1616"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
23:30, 15 July 2018 (MDT)
I hope no one minds my answering. What I've learned is that you need to show the qualities of being an administrator. You need to know a lot of html, and maybe some css. You need to have good leadership skills, need to be good at handling problems, and there has to be need of an administrator. (Such as when there are spam attacks) I asked Scientific Guy and he replied that there is currently no need of another one. Here is a list of administrators on the wiki. I hope this answers your question. If not, ask Scientific Guy. I'm sure he can come up with a better answer to your question.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 16:21, 16 July 2018 (MDT) (P.S.; Like the signature)
I did want an admin to answer, but that's ok. I do hope an admin answers too though, but thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasoniscool (talkcontribs)
…Actually, Conniekendall fan said pretty much what I was going to say. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 17:06, 17 July 2018 (MDT)
Thanks.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 21:13, 17 July 2018 (MDT)

New Idea

I was wondering if we could make an infobox for government/computer programs. It probably might make pages like Applesauce, whit's computer programs in the secret room, the life after death program in #211 – #212: “The Mortal Coil”, and maybe a few others. Thoughts? ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 17:11, 16 July 2018 (MDT)
I think the issue with that would be that a lot of the programs do not have names given in the series and there is often confusion regarding what is a progam and what's an aspect of a program - is Mabel the AI program or just a nickname for a function (or a combination of the two)? Besides this I think there could be a lot of confusion as to what constitutes a computer program rather than an Imagination Station adventure - the life after death program was technically an Imagination Station adventure. I've toyed with the idea of a list of Imagination Station adventures - both those that have appeared on the show and those that are only referenced, connecting them with episodes in which they appeared - but have never followed through with it. I don't know how useful it would be since we do have a list of episodes the Station has appeared in as well, but I'm always for better/more thorough/more intuitive organization. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 14:07, 17 July 2018 (MDT)
I guess you're right. I didn't think about that. I would like the Imagination Station list of programs though. I think it would be very useful in differentiating ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 15:27, 17 July 2018 (MDT)
We could use the list in the Official Guide (p. 442 in the 25th Edition) and put it on Imagination Station. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 17:07, 17 July 2018 (MDT)
I think that might be cool. 1 vote up. ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 20:56, 17 July 2018 (MDT)
My copy of the guide has been appropriated by a relative and I don't have a clear memory of exactly how the list was laid out there but that sounds fine. I would like to include mentions of adventures - like how Jason mentions the Hide and Seek program from #404: “Hide and Seek” in #407: “Malachi's Message, Part 2”, can't remember if that was included in the Guide or not. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 07:34, 18 July 2018 (MDT)

Anyone Want to Record?

Hey Wiki; I had an idea to record a discussion of the Rydell Saga just in time for the release of The Good in People. Would anyone want to talk about it with me? Send me an email via Special:EmailUser/Scientific Guy if you'd like to! Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 17:03, 19 July 2018 (MDT)

I'm down. You can email me if you like. Aioduck29 (talk) 09:54, 23 July 2018 (MDT)

FAQ

Does the wiki have an FAQ that's wiki-related? Such as, what is a wiki? how does a wiki work? Or something like that. I just think that that would make the wiki seem better. . . Maybe more semi-professional?ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 22:26, 29 July 2018 (MDT)
Adventures in Odyssey Wiki:Welcome. That what you want? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 19:17, 31 July 2018 (MDT)
Oops. I forgot about that page. That's cool. ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 21:49, 31 July 2018 (MDT)

Episode Schedule

How do we get the episodes months beforehand? ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 22:12, 1 August 2018 (MDT)
I think this question was directed at me. If this is about the schedule pages then I can answer, if something else entirely, sorry for missing your question. Its pretty easy they go mostly in order, there are the specials for holidays, and they take some out of numbered order but for the most part you just kinda know.
Just kidding :) I have a file from FotF called "Audio Drama MASTER SCHEDULE.xlsx". That is how I know what episode will be airing. (It does not have the weekend episodes though.) For that I get a different, monthly schedule that includes the weekend episodes. Aiow 20:07, 3 August 2018 (MDT)
Thanks for answering my question. ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 22:34, 3 August 2018 (MDT)

bots

What exactly do bots do? how do I make one? and why is there an expiration date on CREAM CHEESE!!!!!????
proverbs 15:11A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Jasoniscool Jasonwhittaker-3.png ~ talk ~
psalm 1:66For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
(Guestbook) sandbox
john 3:1616"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
22:49, 2 August 2018 (MDT)
Bots are used and created by administrators to fix issues and help with editing things like Templates, Infoboxes, and occasionally episode pages. They can only be created by administrators. I'm not sure how to answer your question about cream cheese, though. ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 23:27, 2 August 2018 (MDT)
It will get really gross and eventually mold. :) Rachel Maxwell (talk) 08:20, 3 August 2018 (MDT)
So it's not the kind of cheese that's aged? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 15:19, 4 August 2018 (MDT)
uhh, no.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 22:14, 4 August 2018 (MDT)
You're thinking of sour cream, it's fermented. But it'll go bad/ get moldy as well. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 10:33, 6 August 2018 (MDT)

Long Time No See!

Hey everyone! It's been a while (5+ years) since I've been here, and I'm hoping some of you older users will remember me! I was organizing some things in the basement yesterday and ran across The Official Guide book, which brought back a ton of memories about AIO and this wiki. So, I just wanted to pop back on after all these years and say hello. I had a lot of fun on this website and am very happy to see it is still up and running. Anyways, hope everyone's doing well and God bless!

~ Aria ~ (talk)

Greetings and salutations! :) AIO is one of those things you can't seem to quite run away from. Have you kept up with the series? Rachel Maxwell (talk) 13:53, 7 August 2018 (MDT)
Hi Aria! Great to see an old name popping up again! Ever think about coming back? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 12:13, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
Welcome back Aria! Good to see you! AIOrocks101 (talk) 13:28, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
I'm new here myself (1+ year) but I as well wanted to say welcome back!ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 17:54, 13 August 2018 (MDT)

Cast Organization

Moving topic from talk pages on the issue of organizing episode cast characters alphabetically versus In order of importance. AIOrocks101 (talk) 09:04, 10 August 2018 (MDT)

Actually, there is a need to rearrange the cast. Episode casts used to be put in alphabetically. Now, we put them in, in order of importance in the episode (A better way to do it). For family episodes like Clutter, we go father, mother, oldest to youngest kid. I’ve been working on fixing old episodes slowly for a long time. AIOrocks101 (talk) 07:39, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
I had not heard this. Is this written down somewhere in a set of formatting guidelines? Over time as I've added new characters to the cast, I've been organizing alphabetically. Crnel (talk) 08:11, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
I don’t think it’s written anywhere, but it is how we do it now. I can probably find somewhere to put it. This way just makes it easier to read. For example, If I’m reading about an episode where Wooton is a main character, I expect to see him at the top, not the bottom. Thanks. AIOrocks101 (talk) 08:19, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
A codified sorting standard would definitely be helpful -- not only for users who are new (or, in my case, ignorant), but also because the idea of importance to the episode becomes rather subjective when it comes to supporting or minor characters (many of which have been recently added). Maybe this would be worth opening up for broader discussion on the Town Hall? Crnel (talk) 08:49, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
Sure, we can do that. AIOrocks101 (talk) 08:52, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
I can see how it might be useful to have characters listed in order of importance, but I’m with Crnel in that it would be very subjective and we might be forever rearranging characters based on how important we view them. Here’s three options I’d propose: 1) Leave the characters in alphabetical order (easiest and least subjective way), 2) Put the characters in order of appearance (less subjective, more likely to be key characters appearing first, but would require to carefully listen to every episode again), or 3) Put the characters in order of all-time number of appearances. For example, Whit would always appear at the top of the list since he’s been in the most episodes. One-time characters would be listed alphabetically at the end of the list. What do you all think? Harlow (talk) 09:47, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
Personally, I like the idea of cast in order of appearance. That was the way I structured the 30th Birthday Live Show. Or, we can go by order of importance (see here). For episodes like the Live Show and B-TV: Revenge, since there are so many characters I think a chronological list would be best. For Clutter, since there aren't many characters (thus they can all be seen at the same time without scrolling), order-of-importance is fine.
Is there an easy way to rearrange the cast list? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 12:12, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
"it would be very subjective and we might be forever rearranging characters based on how important we view them." - I don't organize the characters based on how important I personally view them or how much I love them. I love Jimmy, for example, but I'm not going to put Jimmy at the top of the list of an episode that he has one line in, just because I love Jimmy and that's the way its going to be. I will admit that we can't be completely objective with this, however, we can do our very best. I don't have a cheat sheet that says "In cases "XYZ", Jared goes in number 5." I just go in and figure out what works best based on the episode. The way I do it is I figure out who the top three characters are based on who the episode is about. I change those at the top, then I put the generic characters at the bottom (And/Or, the characters who may have a big role in the series, but only have a line or two in this particular episode). The order of generic characters isn't that important. Then, I figure out the middle, which is the hardest part, and does require discretion, but I make it work. If I had a list of how many lines each character has in each episode, I would use it, but I don't so I make due with what I have. 1) This makes it confusing to read, and hard to find a certain character, also I don't want, for example, "Construction Worker #3" at the top, when, as a generic character with just one line in "Episode X" he should be at the bottom. Remember, that's just a random person I made up for that example. 2) Difficult, don't want to listen to each episode to just look for that. Also, "Construction Worker #3" could still claim top spot, when he doesn't deserve it. Connie is the star of "Episode X", it says it right in the (imaginary) summary. She should be Number One. 3)This isn't good because even though Whit is the main character in the series, he shouldn't get top spot in "Episode X", because he only has two lines.
"Personally, I like the idea of cast in order of appearance. That was the way I structured the 30th Birthday Live Show. Or, we can go by order of importance (see here)." For the live show or B-TV, I like to start with our main characters, Whit, Connie, Eugene, etc.. at the top and group other characters played by the same actor under their main character, and work your way from there. This is how I like to do normal episodes as well. Its much more organized and easier to read. See B-TV: To Tell the Truth. Once you get to Kari Wahlgren and Phil Lollar at the bottom, their order isn't a big deal. I admit I might want to move Centurion under them since that's the only character Bob Smithouser plays. When I say order of importance, I don't mean "Who are the most important characters in the series?" What I mean is "Who are the main characters in this episode? Who are the supporting characters? Who just has a few lines?" Like that. I don't think there is a way to rearrange the cast list without going in and doing it manually, which I don't mind doing. You can't make a bot for it, since it will be different each episode. I'm sorry I didn't explain this better before. AIOrocks101 (talk) 13:26, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
I think we need an objective way to sort the characters. There are so many episodes with multiple story arcs where “main characters” are hard to judge. My vote is either alphabetical or chronological. Alphabetical is easier than chronological, because you don’t have to listen the episode to figure it out. If we went with chronological, we can always click the headings to sort alphabetically. Harlow (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
Since alphabetic sorting is already a function built into the Cast template, and since, as AIORocks points out, random minor characters may end up being placed high into the list when sorted alphabetically by default, a chronological sorting might be the best option. This may also inadvertently satisfy the desire to place the most prominent characters first, since the major characters in the episode tend to be heard in the first scene. Crnel (talk) 20:37, 10 August 2018 (MDT)
Order of importance is too subjective. And the father-mother-oldest to youngest kid doesn't work with families like the Washingtons where it's only mentioned once off-handed what birth order the kids are in. You shouldn't have to know the entire history of the show to add a character. I've been putting them in chronological since they can be sorted alphabetically anyway. I mean I'm sure there are times I heard a character who wasn't listed and stuck them in the bottom by accident but it wasn't intentional. I'm all for a codified cast/character list but it needs to be something completely objective. Order of appearance to me makes the most sense because if you are looking for who played the part of a character with a couple of throwaway lines that may be the only way you could find them if it's a show like a BTV with a lot of characters. If y'all really want to designate one line or one time characters within the structure then we need to come up with some sort of symbol to be next to the character's name. EDIT: Maybe we could have like two sets of symbols - one for the subjective importance we judge the character to have within the episode and one for their importance to the series. Like concentric circles - characters in the smallest, most inner circle are the most important - Whit, Connie, Eugene, etc. Middle circle are important characters but not The Main - Courtney, Tasha Forbes, Leonard Meltsner, and the outermost circle is characters of minor importance or who only have a few lines. I mean it would be a lot of work but no more than rearranging every cast/character infobox. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 08:47, 13 August 2018 (MDT)
I would be very happy to create a sample template or do some revisions to the existing one. Could we list some more example episodes that I could work with? So far, we have Clutter, the 30th Birthday Live Show, B-TV: Revenge, and B-TV: To Tell the Truth.
Edit: Here's a start! Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 16:07, 15 August 2018 (MDT)
I’m actually going to make some guidelines tonight. Maybe I can add that. AIOrocks101 (talk) 18:49, 15 August 2018 (MDT)
Thank you everyone for your ideas and input. You wanted a page explaining the rules for the cast lists, and now we have one. Please see Help:Episode Cast. It can be found on the Manual of Style page. I know some of you will probably say these methods are too complicated. I understand, since you're not used to it. After you do it several times, and become more familiar with it, it will get easier. With these methods that you may think are "too complicated", we can create cast lists that will be easier to read for the viewer. Remember, it's always more important to use methods (for anything on the wiki) that will be easy to read, not necessarily super easy to edit. I will update B-TV: To Tell the Truth to reflect these new rules, in order to use it as an example, when I get a chance. Thanks guys. AIOrocks101 (talk) 00:41, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
AIOrocks101, you’ve put lots of work into this and I really appreciate your effort! One question: Is this final, or is there room for discussion? The reason I ask is that after rereading our comment chain about this, almost everyone opted for a chronological approach to organizing the cast, and it looks like you went with your original idea instead of considering everyone else’s opinions. As an admin, you’re entitled to make changes to how this page operates, and I’m ok with that. However my concern is that the changes you’ve made do not reflect what the majority (on this conversation at least) asked for. Looking through the names on the comment feed I see that those who commented are the most active editors we have. By changing the rules against the consensus of the team, you run the risk of losing some of our best volunteer editors. While the plan you’ve laid out is well-thought-out and elaborate, many of us are full-time students and young professionals, editing pages as our free time permits, and we don’t have the time to follow an elaborate process, but since we love odyssey, we want to have the joy of listening and adding to the wiki as our schedules permit. I’d encourage you and the rest of the admin to reread the comments and take the majority consensus into consideration. Perhaps some sort of official vote, or compromise, would be in order. Harlow (talk) 10:28, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
AIOrocks, do you think what I tried is a good idea? It satisfies the need to separate major and minor characters and keeps them in chronological order. And with the "Crazy Talented Actor" section, couldn't one merely click the sort arrows to group characters by actor? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 12:02, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
Harlow, thank you for your input. I want you to know that I did reread everyone's ideas and consider them, and put them in here and there, such as the Ensemble Method. Ill probably revise it a bit later, I can't stop you from giving more suggestions, but I dont want to make a lot of big changes. I would hope that no one decides to leave over this. I understand that everyone, including me, just does this when we have time, and thats fine, i didnt do much the last two years for that very reason. I don’t want to do an official count numbers vote, because while I believe getting everyone’s feedback is important, ultimately the admins need to make the final decision. I know change is hard, but we can’t ever please everybody, there have been decisions made on here by Scientific Guy, and others that I didn’t necessarily agree with, but I let Sci do his thing because I understood his view on ways to improve the wiki. He has contributed much and well to the wiki, and I thank him for that, but I feel like I haven’t really had a big thing that I’ve done, just because of time. I can discuss with him, but I’m not going to just throw the whole thing out. Sci, I don’t like separating the characters into different boxes, it looks bad. It’s too much segregation. Also, you can’t click the arrows to sort completely by actor, and I want to see that by default. AIOrocks101 (talk) 12:10, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
What big changes do you mean? I don't believe there was a written precedent in place, only what you had envisioned. How is your method better than ours? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 12:18, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
As somebody who's been here as long as most (all?) of you off and on, I think it's safe for me to say the wiki can handle complicated edits as long as they make for a better experience for the user. The mentioned characters template made for more work but personally I think it's brilliant - absolutely brilliant. I just don't see how this ordering system is significantly better for the user - the chronological system is much more intuitive when you're reading through the cast/characters list. I'm not opposed to it being more work for the editors really, though I think there will be problems with that. My issue is that I think doing it that way doesn't add any value for the typical user. I don't mind having indicators for major/minor characters, I think that's a great idea. But I don't think sorting them that way makes any sense at all since most users probably won't even realize that's what's going on. Personally I'm not really a fan of splitting the boxes into major/minor characters especially since "minor" characters can become major ones as the series progresses, which means going back and re-editing episodes just to change something that is always going to be pretty subjective. Sorting characters by number of appearances (as you suggest in the Ensemble section) is the same way - you want em sorted by the number of appearances at the time of that airing or as of whatever their present count is? Why bother grouping characters played by the same actor together when we can already sort them alphabetically, which will put all roles played by an actor together? I just don't think there's enough of a benefit to this new system to justify making changes to over 800 episodes. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 14:53, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
Ok. I'm gonna try to break all this down and explain it as best I can.
1. How is this system better for the user? Methods like chronological or alphabetical can appear (seemingly) random to the untrained eye. I don't really know how many people read the cast list while they are listening to the episode, but for new episodes, I don't, for fear of spoilers. If you aren't reading the list while you listen, chronological won't be effective and you (probably) won't remember what order people were in, especially if you haven't heard the episode before. This can apply for old episodes as well, because any episode can be new to somebody. Maybe a lot of you can remember the basic chronological order after the fact, and that's great, but we have to remember the we admins, and all of the other editors who love helping on here, are not the average fan. We want the average fan, not matter how much they know about "AIO", to be able to find and read what they are looking for quickly and easily. When I first started on here, over 6 years ago, when I would look at cast lists, I expected to see the "stars" of the episode (The people that it's mainly about, who are probably mentioned in the summary) at the top. What I found was, what looked to me, like a random order with people just thrown in wherever. It was a while before I realized most of the lists were in alphabetical order. We don't want visitors to have to take the time to figure that out, and change how they approach it. I would expect, and I would think that the "Average Joe" listener would expect to see the main characters at the top, all the way through to cameos at the bottom, the same way you see any movie or TV show credits organized. You watch an Indiana Jones movie, who is the first cast member you see listed ? Harrison Ford. Why? Because he's the star. And "John Smith" who has two lines in a 30 second scene is way at the bottom. Why? Because the average watcher/listener doesn't care about "John Smith" nearly as much as he does Harrison Ford or Will Ryan. Good Ol' "John" and his character are still there to view, and he gets his credit, but he's not up in your face in front of the people that most listeners are going to really care about. No matter what we do on the Wiki, we need to always think (Even if it's harder for us) "What will this look like to the average listener, who maybe knows almost nothing about "AIO" or the Wiki? Is it easy for them to read and understand?" If not, it should be changed. We editors should all think of ourselves as "AIO" "interpreters". Because we probably know a lot more facts than most, we need to look at it from their viewpoint, and write it in an easy to understand "language", that most people (Who know English) should be able to read without much problem. Remember, people (who don't edit) get on here because they have questions about the show. They should be able to find the answers they seek quickly and easily.
2. In regards to major and minor characters, again, I believe the average listener, who is unfamiliar with the Wiki, would expect the star of the episode to be at the top. I think they would know that that is what is happening. I believe they would be more likely to be confused and not realize what's going on with the chronological or alphabetical methods. If someone who doesn't know much about the show or the wiki listens to an episode with Robyn Jacobs as the main character (Such as You Go to School Where? or But, You Promised), and wants to find her in the list so they can read more about her, they will be frustrated if they have to scroll through a bunch of other characters, who they may be unfamiliar with, just to find the star of the episode, who they were expecting to be at the top. The Wiki needs to be as user friendly as possible, otherwise, what's the point? While I don't believe Sci's box method is best, with both that & my method (Maybe I could have explained it a little better), it's major and minor characters in the EPISODE not the SERIES. Whit may be the main character in the series, but there are a good amount of episodes, where he plays a fairly minor role in the grand scheme of things. This is exactly what happens with the episode Clutter. If you refer back to Sci's example image above, you will see Whit is in the "Minor Characters" box with Red because their roles are both small and not as important as the rest of the actual Parker family, the stars of the episode. If you look at how I have it set up currently on that episodes page, you will see a similar thing, Whit and Red are at the bottom because their roles in this episode are minor compared to the rest of the cast. If a minor character in the series gains a larger role overall down the road, good for them, but it shouldn't really have a bearing on their placement in past or future cast lists because it's all about what their role was in that particular episode. There is no reason to go back and change it again, unless you are adding a needed character who wasn't there before. If we are talking Major and minor characters in the series, the wiki has a way for that. Category:Characters by number of appearances, and the pages within. I know we don't have lists of the number of lines for each character, or something like that, But, by putting our thinking caps on, we can make a list that's hopefully close to an official one, and looks more professional than something that can look random and disorderly. Please remember, no method is perfect.
3. Sorting characters by number of appearances, as in the Ensemble Guidelines: I would say sorting by a character's present count. I will admit trying to figure out what it was when an old episode came out would be too difficult. I certainly don't want to figure that out. But, please remember, as I stated in the Guidelines, that method should not be used a lot, only after a user has tried unsuccessfully to use the first one, the "Main Cast Method".
4.Why bother grouping characters played by the same actor together? I like, and I believe it's a very useful feature for the reader, to be able to easily see all characters played by a particular actor together. It makes them easy to find. Say someone is listening to an episode, they hear a small one time character, they think "Is he played by Will Ryan?" They simply go to the cast list, see where all Will Ryan's characters are listed together, and they can find it and get their answer. While you can press the actor arrow buttons to sort everything alphabetically by actor, I believe it to be most convenient for the reader if it's already like that by default, and they can see it along with the rest of the main cast order. I will admit I made a mistake, thinking the arrows can't put all an actors characters together. I will admit I haven't used the arrows much. Maybe there are others who also don't really notice the arrows. Even so, I still think it would be better to have that in the regular cast list. It makes the lists look more orderly, and less messy.
And, in regards to going back and changing over 800 episodes, I am not going to say, and no one should say "Well, this is a very important project, so we need to have all these pages changed by this time next month". Of course not. No way. I think, If several of us work on it when we can (Which is all any of us can ever do) editing lists when you're listening to an episode, and you are able and have time to change it, great. I think we could have it all switched over in two years or less. No need to rush and kill ourselves. A lot of recent episodes are already formatted similar to this. I'm sorry that was so long, but I do want to help everybody understand my reasoning. I know you are frustrated, but, hopefully, you are starting to see and understand better where I am coming from. AIOrocks101 (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
It's late at night for me; I'll just throw this in here. The point of the cast list should be to tell who plays which character. The point of the plot is to tell who the star is. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 21:35, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
I just really think there's an easier solution. What if, instead of reordering all the cast/character boxes, we came up with an infobox that was sortable alphabetically, chronologically, and order of importance. Then we'd just have to back into old episodes and put in numbers to indicate their standings. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 07:02, 17 August 2018 (MDT)
No, think about it, that’s a lot more work. You would still have to go in to every episode, figure out and add now 2 numbers for every character, and you’re already changing the numbers, you might as well reorder them too, (I find it easier to reorder when changing numbers anyway) that wouldn’t add much work. And, you’re have to make another, more complicated template. Also, remember, most episode lists from the last several years in the recent albums, are already sorted close to what I outlined, and might just need a little tweaking here and there, you’d have a lot more pages to change doing what you just suggested. With what I outlined, you’d also be changing most episodes, but just one number for each character, and nothing beyond the episode pages themselves. That other way is all just too much work. AIOrocks101 (talk) 10:16, 17 August 2018 (MDT)
More work initially, maybe, but more information and more intuitive for the user. I thought we weren't deciding this based on the amount of work; it's not necessarily easier for the editors but it's easier to understand for the average user. Look I nerd out on AIO as much as anybody - I did a study one time on the ratio of female to male characters (spoiler: Margaret Faye was right). I'm all for more information, all for better organization. But I'm not for doing it in a way that isn't immediately obvious to the user - much less not obvious to those of us who know the show inside and out. If your method of organizing the characters doesn't make a lot of sense to people who have heard literally every episode then maybe it needs some tweaking. If you said 'we should have a way to organize the character list by order of importance as well as order of appearance (a standard crediting technique) or alphabetically (again, a standard crediting technique)' then I'd be completely behind that. I want the Wiki to be as accessible to AIO's casual fans as to those of us who dive ridiculously deep into theories and minutiae. I also want the amount of information to be interesting and usable to those of us who do enjoy all the data. To me the more information, the better organized, the better. Look, the standards for organization you've laid out have some real flaws, some of which we've already addressed - like what to do when it hasn't been really established which sibling is older. Or you have the father always listed first in family episodes - what if the father has a small role? By order of importance then shouldn't he be at least in the middle? Or do we leave him at the top because that's just the rule now? There's too much that's subjective for it to be a standard that we hold people to, and too much subjectivity for us to say a list of characters that has more than a couple of major ones (like most of the Blackgaard saga episodes) is "wrong". Personally I foresee edit wars with "this character was more important" "no THIS character was more important". And what happens in storytelling episodes like the Underground Railroad. Jack's not really a major character in there, he's just a listener. But he's vital to the telling of the story. And in Bible episodes, isn't Jesus always the most important character even when he has a "smaller" role than other characters like in Adventure in Bethany? Or in Hide and Seek when we hear the voice of God - who's gonna put God at the bottom because He only had a couple of lines? Rachel Maxwell (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2018 (MDT)

You're right, I did say that. We shouldn't decide based on the amount of work. I just didn't want to go too far with stuff to do, but since you feel so strongly about this, I think we can make it work. I think it's established that we have different opinions on what is obvious and what isn't, both to average and avid listeners. "we should have a way to organize the character list by order of importance as well as order of appearance (a standard crediting technique) or alphabetically (again, a standard crediting technique)" Ok, lets do this. If Scientific Guy can make a template for it, and everybody pitches in, fixing an episode when you have time (I wouldn't demand anything more, I know we all have lives), it should be a smooth transition. I would like the default method to be the "order of importance" (If you have an issue with that, please remember I'm giving a little, & giving you more of what you want, so meet me halfway please), and each method of organization should have a title at the top, when you change it, so that people will know what it is, if there is any doubt. "I want the Wiki to be as accessible to AIO's casual fans as to those of us who dive ridiculously deep into theories and minutiae. I also want the amount of information to be interesting and usable to those of us who do enjoy all the data. To me the more information, the better organized, the better." - I completely agree. I want it to be as useful and interesting to us huge fans as to the average listener. I just meant that I don't want to do anything that will be hard to use or understand to new or less experienced people. I apologize if I sounded like I was saying something different. Ok, I understand, please keep in mind, that every method brought up here has flaws, and nothing we do will ever be completely perfect. That's just how it is. "like what to do when it hasn't been really established which sibling is older." - Like I said before, we know that Marvin Washington is older than Tamika, that has been established in the show. We also know that Kelly is younger than both of them. Let's look at other families that we know. We know the order of the Parker kids. Whittaker? Check. Kendall? Check. We know the correct order for the Straussbergs, and the McKays. Oscar Peterson's family, and the Jacobs family we know. We know enough about the DeWhite and the Jefferson families. We know the orders for the Shepard family and the Horton family. For the Mulligan family, Tony and Brianna don't appear at all with the whole rest of them, so that's not a problem. For Janelle and Jessica, I don't remember if their ages are stated, but I believe we can tell that they are younger than Nick and Lisa. Since Janelle and Jessica are twins, and their age would be the same, Janelle can come first, going alphabetically. Since Hector's age is unknown, but we know he's younger than Lisa and Nick, he can go at the bottom, since he's only in one episode. Ok, that's most of the families. Did I miss anyone important? As you can see, we have enough information about most of the major families on the show to make it work. "Or you have the father always listed first in family episodes - what if the father has a small role? By order of importance then shouldn't he be at least in the middle? Or do we leave him at the top because that's just the rule now?" - I just thought it would be good to have the father listed first, just based on the biblical standard that the father should be the head in the household, even in modern times. For Grady, I know his dad's not around most of the time, so we list his mom first, not a problem. But, we can make an exception for episodes where Grady is obviously the bigger character compared to his mom and sister, and can be listed before. I mentioned that in what I wrote. For The Highest Stakes, we don't have to list Carson first (But please don't think I'm saying to list every character based on what their morals are, Of course not). We could probably List Grady and then Carson, since they are the main characters in that story, with the rest of the family following. If the father (Or another family member) has a smaller role, and that makes the list just not look right, then the list can be adjusted accordingly based on that episode and situation. For the family method, I believe it should be used for Ensemble episodes, where the story is more about the family as a whole, and not necessarily ones where a kid may have an obviously larger role. Examples of Family ensemble episodes would be Family Vacation, Our Best Vacation Ever, Treasures of the Heart, The Mystery at Tin Flat, Sunday Morning Scramble, Clutter, Un-Tech the Halls, etc. "too much subjectivity for us to say a list of characters that has more than a couple of major ones (like most of the Blackgaard saga episodes) is "wrong"" - This is what the Ensemble method is for. I'm fine with listing the characters based on their number of appearances in the show, for the episodes that do have long complicated casts. (Blackgaard, Novacom, B-TV, The Green Ring Conspiracy, The Ties That Bind, etc.) If we want to do that for those ones by default, without trying the "Main Character" method first, I'm fine with that. "Personally I foresee edit wars with "this character was more important" "no THIS character was more important"." - Yeah, I don't want that to happen, I think, if there is a disagreement like that, or if just one user can't decide between two (or more characters) which to put first, just sort those characters by their appearance count in the series. That would be fine. "And what happens in storytelling episodes like the Underground Railroad. Jack's not really a major character in there, he's just a listener. But he's vital to the telling of the story."- What I do for episodes like that is I list the main two or three characters in the story being told, then I list the people telling and listening to the story, then I list everyone else. So for the underground railroad, We would list Henry Ross, Caroline Ross, William Ross, Carl Ross, Jack Allen, (These two can be flipped if needed), then everyone else. See One More Name (I know the rest of that episode's list would need tweaking, but it works for what I'm talking about) for an example. "And in Bible episodes, isn't Jesus always the most important character even when he has a "smaller" role than other characters like in Adventure in Bethany? Or in Hide and Seek when we hear the voice of God - who's gonna put God at the bottom because He only had a couple of lines?" - Please don't destroy me for saying this, but while I do believe God is the most important "character" in all of our lives, I don't think God or Jesus needs to be placed at the top of the list of an episode where he is not the main character. I think He should be placed based on his heard role like the rest. If he's at the bottom, we can think of it as "Saving the best for last". Or another idea, we could do "Saving the best for last" for every episode with God or Jesus, and just always list him last. Now that I think about it, I like that way best. Just like some shows and movies will list the highest profile actor last. You brought up some good questions, thank you. Look, I know this is more complicated than you guys are used to, and it will take some time to get the hang of it, but I believe, in the long run, when its all done, it will look great. I would like to ask for everyone to do their best to respect each other on here. I will also do my best to respect everyone, and try to answer concerns as best I can. AIOrocks101 (talk) 23:57, 17 August 2018 (MDT)

(Getting hard to read in the right margin) I can certainly rig something up! Thank you for conceding to do a hybrid plan, AIOrocks. My idea is to add a button that says Relative Importance / Chronological and clicking on it changes the cast box. The sort feature (up/down arrows) for importance is based on alphabetical order and the sort for Chronological is first-last and last-first. I didn't think mentioned characters was a good idea in the first place, but it's been fantastic! (Thanks to Crnel...) Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 17:17, 18 August 2018 (MDT)
Ok, I'm looking forward to seeing it! AIOrocks101 (talk) 18:14, 18 August 2018 (MDT)
YES YES YES!! How's this? User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 20:57, 18 August 2018 (MDT)
I think that looks really good, and has all the features everyone's been discussing. Thanks for your work on this, Scientific Guy! Harlow (talk) 22:36, 18 August 2018 (MDT)
Got the first prototype up for Crash Course in my sandbox. I had an idea that would make later rearranging of characters easier, which is just using {{{1}}} and {{{2}}} instead of {{{Character1}}} and {{{Actor1}}}. I can't get DPL to autogenerate the markup for me (using #expr with %NR% makes the wiki dummb); perhaps if someone else could? Then again, we can just stay with special parameters. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 19:49, 19 August 2018 (MDT)
Looks good so far, I don't know how to do that, if we can't figure it out, we can just keep the other way, though that would make it easier. AIOrocks101 (talk) 20:09, 19 August 2018 (MDT)
...Anyone wanna take a crash course in Lua? I have NEVER been able to understand the Module pages anyway. A user who knows Lua will be very helpful. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 20:13, 19 August 2018 (MDT)
I'm a fan of this box! AIORocks I think your responses to the specific issues I brought up were really well-thought out and I don't have a problem with any of them - really glad we are talking about all of this now as opposed to down the road when we've all done pages slightly differently. Sorry that I don't speak Lua :( Rachel Maxwell (talk) 12:21, 20 August 2018 (MDT)
Yessssssss... User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox and User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox2. Sandbox has the example for Crash Course with parameters: {{Hybrid Cast}}. Sandbox2 has the same thing without parameters: {{SimpleHybrid Cast}}. Feel free to edit Sandbox2 and see how the boxes change when you rearrange lines. No need to do any copying and pasting! (By the way, could you chime in on City Council, Rachel Maxwell?) Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 18:36, 20 August 2018 (MDT)
Just to throw out my opinion as (I think) one of the most active users, I love this idea of the box. I don't speak Lua but if I can help please let me know ( I'm trying to find something important to do on the wiki) ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 23:44, 20 August 2018 (MDT)
P.S.; If you're looking for courses maybe this [2] will help.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 23:52, 20 August 2018 (MDT)
Check.svg Done Unless anyone can find a bug, {{Hybrid Cast}} is my final template. Hybrid Cast doesn't use named parameters but {{Hybrid Cast/named}} does. {{SimpleHybrid Cast}} is a redirect. Any questions? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 19:56, 23 August 2018 (MDT)
Could everyone chime in on whether you all think this'll work? I'm fixing a bug with showing character names, but once I fix that, could you take a look and give me your opinions? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 17:49, 30 August 2018 (MDT)
I really like the new template, and I'm finding the significant factor to be simpler than I assumed it would be for most episodes. Keeping track of appearance order and significance takes active listening, but that's a good thing. One problem: B-TV and similar episodes. Deciding significance for such an episode is difficult, so it might be simpler just to put the reoccurring characters at the top in order of significance, then the other characters in order of appearance, or alphabetically, or something. But I really think we should move forward with the new template! Harlow (talk) 13:03, 31 August 2018 (MDT)
Check.svg Done! I don't think there are any problems with Hybrid Cast. It's ready to go! Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 07:31, 21 October 2018 (MDT)

2018 Season

In the 2018 Season, it says that the episodes for album 65 come out in October and November. But I'm listening to the first four episodes in the club now and the next one comes out on the 16th. Could someone please fix this?ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 14:55, 14 August 2018 (MDT)
Those dates are when it airs on the radio. AIOrocks101 (talk) 16:08, 14 August 2018 (MDT)
Oops. My bad.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 00:46, 15 August 2018 (MDT)

City Council

Hi! Just an idea I've been thinking about: should we make a page like the Town Hall that only admins may edit? It would be to discuss more complicated problems on the wiki that only admins can handle (not the cast organization). This wouldn't be to exclude normal users, who could still bring up the same question on the Town Hall. I'm thinking of Adventures in Odyssey Wiki:City Council. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 12:15, 16 August 2018 (MDT)

I know I'm not an admin, but I think that would be a great idea. It might be easier for the admins to fix issues of they are able to discuss them without intrusion of other users who are not admins. (Such as. . .me) 1 vote up.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 13:29, 16 August 2018 (MDT)
I think this is a great idea. But, if we are going to have a discussion page that only admins can use, it should be made in a way that only admins can see the content and messages on it as well, so that admins can discuss some things in private. I don't know how that can be done, but I think that's what would need to happen. AIOrocks101 (talk) 00:01, 18 August 2018 (MDT)
A bureaucrat-developer can hide the page. That's the way the Bible Verse pages work (Bible Verse:Genesis) Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 17:17, 18 August 2018 (MDT)
On second thought, I'm not completely sure why we would have to have privacy. Other users could benefit from seeing our discussions. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 13:27, 19 August 2018 (MDT)
I think it would be best to keep it hidden, If some admins don't agree on something, we might not want users to watch us (civilly) debate back and forth. Also, if the admins want to do something special for the wiki, and keep it a surprise until a certain time. Also, if a user is doing something wrong, and we want to discuss appropriate action based on the situation, users shouldn't see that. If we are discussing some other relevant topic, that we want other users to see, we can do it on the town hall. Or, if we want them to see a specific discussion, we can post screenshots. Their have been times when I've wanted to message you, without everyone seeing, it would be a useful feature, without having to email every time. AIOrocks101 (talk) 20:04, 19 August 2018 (MDT)
I suggest that you could have a subpage that is not hidden, such as Adventures in Odyssey Wiki:City Council/Public Admin Discussions and one that is, i.e. Adventures in Odyssey Wiki:City Council/Private Admin Discussions Jason13579 Jasonwhittaker-2.png (talk) (Guestbook) (Email Me) Sandbox
job 3:22He said:
14:21, 17 October 2018 (MDT)
I'll keep it visible. If we need to discuss something privately, we can use Special:EmailUser. EDIT: I think the page is ready: AIOWiki:City Council. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 08:31, 21 October 2018 (MDT)

Auto-Generated Album Writer Table

Anyone know how to automatically generate the table on User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox3? It should work for other albums as well as 64. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 10:59, 14 September 2018 (MDT)

good question this would be helpful with the imagination station series table too. but I think it's a function like the family tree that cannot be automatic. but hope someone can find a solution ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 12:26, 14 September 2018 (MDT)
Just an idea I had a few hours ago: it probably won't work unless we have Lua do it or format it like {{Hybrid Cast}}, copying and pasting the recursive part manually. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 16:43, 14 September 2018 (MDT)
Check.svg Done {{Album Writers}} See User:Scientific Guy/Sandbox3. Feel free to try and make it simpler!! Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 21:10, 14 September 2018 (MDT)
Also fixed {{Album Characters}}! This means that AIOWiki:Album Characters works now. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 18:55, 15 September 2018 (MDT)

Album Versions

I am at a loss on how to compile this information, basically there are several more variations on the Albums than even I knew, largely do to publishers, so some Albums were released under Focus Brand or Tommy Nelson and then again under Tyndale. the CD Back Covers Changed as well as the Spine, and in some cases the CD/Cassettes. if you follow my Facebook page I have updated a few of them. not sure how many cassette albums were re-released under Tommy Nelson or Tyndale (depends on how many people bought them out of the old design before the technology was discontinued) Also some of the CD/DVD/Cassette Artwork is very interesting as the technology advanced. I would like the CD Artwork standardized along with the front/back cover art. Sampler Albums and even the Cassette albums are missing back cover images that I am attempting to scan and upload along with the missing clubhouse magazine covers. I can setup a Google Drive or DropBox or just dump on a facebook album and anyone that wanted to grab images and crop/edit and upload to the wiki with the correct file names and edit the pages that'd be a great help, I hate to just upload to the wiki without the right name/info. ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2018 (MDT)

Saw this but haven't had time to work on it. I'll try later this month. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 08:33, 7 October 2018 (MDT)

reCAPtcha

I had trouble yesterday logging in and was presented the reCAPtcha to verify my account but it is not working. It said that the module needed to be updated to the newest version so I was unable to login. User:Mdb17 (talk)

Adventures in Odyssey Subreddit?

Is the town hall on here for discussing website, episodes, or both? I'm a moderator on the AIO subreddit (link) over on Reddit and would love to make it an area to discuss episodes, ask questions and more but didn't know if that was already done here. I know I'm a new user on AIO Wiki but I've followed the site for years (literally years) and have been an Odyssey fan for a long time as well. I just don't want to take people away from the site here if it's already being used not just for talking about, updating, and fixing the site but also for episode discussion?

Mainly it's for discussing the Wiki and how to edit it. But on the page for whatever topic you want to discuss feel free. so if there is a particular episode go to the talk page for it ie: Talk:The_Curse ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 17:59, 6 October 2018 (MDT)
Also SIGN your Posts with the 4 ~ to tag them: ~~~~ ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2018 (MDT)
I'm all for new ways to discuss AIO, but I don't think Reddit is a good place to do so. There are some very inappropriate things found on Reddit (commented out) that I don't want anyone to be led to. That's my thought; someone else might have a different idea. In the meantime, do what OdysseyFan said about talk pages, or go to some Fan-Made Message Boards (List of websites#Fan-created message boards), which are usually safe. Or see AIOWiki:Q and A. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 08:31, 7 October 2018 (MDT)

Visual Editing mode?

I think we should add a visual editing mode, like on Wikipedia. It would make editing a page a lot easier because users wouldn't have to preview. Jason13579 Jasonwhittaker-2.png (talk) (Guestbook) (Email Me) Sandbox
job 3:22He said:
12:16, 5 November 2018 (MST)
I agree! I believe you're talking about mw:Extension:VisualEditor. If Reddo comes back then I'll ask him about it. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 16:08, 7 November 2018 (MST)
Well I'll be the grump here. I'm not in support of adding the visual editor for two reasons. #1 it lowers the barer of entry. Yes that can be a good thing, but in my experience (mod on a Q and A site) quality goes down fast. There will be more edits we need to fix or revert. #2 incompatibly with our style. We have lots of templates generating parts of the page, and all that source has to be just so. This editor comes along and very likely will not work with some of that.
Now this is just personal, but I don't like in line editors. (Plus it is slow to load.) Try it out for yourself, I know I'd be clicking the "source Editing" button. Aiow 16:02, 9 November 2018 (MST)
I definitely agree on number two. Honestly, it's not slow for me and it definitely could be useful- but the incompatibility is a problem that's not easily fixable. Cartoon Nostalgia 16:15, 9 November 2018 (MST)
Just a personal preference but I like being forced to preview - especially in the case of revising large blocks of text it forces me to re-read rather than glance over. Even after preview I've caught myself making silly small mistakes, like leaving out punctuation or entire words because I was typing quickly. I think taking away the preview would lead to more haphazard edits - just speaking for myself personally. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 08:03, 12 November 2018 (MST)

Fan Episodes

Would it be possible for me to create a link off my page (e.g. User:CartoonNostalgia/Fan Episodes), where anyone can post their fan episodes? There would have to be rigid guidelines, but it might be a little more organized then the TOO. I can understand if the admins want us to keep fan content off the wiki, and that's fine, but it was also really difficult to find the TOO section, so... Comments? Cartoon Nostalgia 11:12, 9 November 2018 (MST)

(Moved from archive) Sure, I think that's alright until Reddo says otherwise. Just let us monitor the content. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 11:47, 9 November 2018 (MST)
Of course. Cartoon Nostalgia 12:43, 9 November 2018 (MST)

New Project

moved from talk pages for greater discussion on Town Hall

Hey Rachel! I've finished {{Hybrid Cast}} and that's the last of my large-scale projects here on AIOWiki. Any ideas you've had that we can work on? Perhaps an automated {{New Episodes}}? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 10:23, 9 November 2018 (MST)
Hey man! Hybrid Cast looks terrific - I added a cast member to #661: “When You're Right, You're Right” and had intended to use it before I remembered that I had no idea in what order the characters appeared, so I'll have to delve into that as I re-listen to episodes. As for new projects, an automated New Episode sounds like a terrific idea, though one I would be very little help with since the sort of coding you do for that sort of thing is quite a bit above my head. If there is anything I can do on it I'd be glad to help. Beyond that I still really liked the idea about having an interactive map with locations where episodes were known to have occurred - where you could click on the state (or country) and it would show a list of episodes that occurred there. Not sure how practical of a project that would be but I have come back to it mentally a few times. I love it when we develop features that aren't available anywhere else. What are your thoughts? Rachel Maxwell (talk) 11:07, 9 November 2018 (MST)
I believe the consensus on the map was that it would require an extension. I'm not sure how to do it otherwise... unless we upload sections of the map as pictures and click on each one, like this website.
Forgot about the extension. What if we made a timeline that had historical and Biblical episodes on it, showing what points in history had episodes? Rachel Maxwell (talk) 18:17, 10 November 2018 (MST)
This is a pretty simple idea, but what if we added a little bit of text + code to the Template:Today's Episode blurb where it shows the three main actors (similar to the three main actors idea in the character sorting guidelines) under a "Starring" section? It's probably a bad idea, but it worked for me as an idea at least in theory so I figured I'd submit it to the community for input. Cartoon Nostalgia 18:48, 10 November 2018 (MST)
Rachel, we can move this discussion to the Town Hall if you want. CN, is this what you wanted: {{Today's Episode/test}}? It won't work if one of the first three actors are unknown, if it's a split episode, or if one of the three actors is the same as one of the others. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 07:42, 11 November 2018 (MST)

Radio Dramas

With their inclusion on the OA club (albeit for limited periods of time) does any one have any strong feelings about including or definitely not including Focus's radio dramas on here? The precedent for Last Chance Detectives was that they were on here but not included in cast templates. I wouldn't mind revisiting that really, since it's a definite in-world crossover (Jason actually appearing in the first one). But anyway. Thoughts? Rachel Maxwell (talk) 08:14, 12 November 2018 (MST)

I would really like it if we had pages for them. They have had some (in my opinion) excellent radio dramas recently and I would like for there to be pages. I vote for including. Perhaps in a category like Other Radio Work by Focus or something like that?ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 23:38, 26 November 2018 (MST)
(How did I miss this?) Sure, we can include Radio Theatre. I had actually been wanting to do this for a while. I'll make a list here: User:Scientific Guy/List. Just use {{Infobox Other Episode}} and a new template for RT albums. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 08:25, 27 November 2018 (MST)
How do you feel about using the regular character/actor template for them, as well as the Last Chance Detectives? Especially in LCD there's quite a bit of actor overlap. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 09:41, 27 November 2018 (MST)
Does this mean I'm okay to create the pages? Because if I can, I want to get to work on some really soon.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 11:36, 27 November 2018 (MST)

I am gonna say no. LCD was a crossover series that included Jason Whittaker. RT is not, I am sure that the Cast and Crew would be easy because they are on here already, but then you would want to add RT credits to their pages and those are unrelated to AIO, and then what, you add Lamplighter and Heirloom maybe McGee and ME? nope. Shouldn't even have Iliad House on here. IMO. ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 18:38, 29 November 2018 (MST)

I suppose so. ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 18:52, 29 November 2018 (MST)
I'm not at a place where I can discuss this now; maybe I'll be able to on the 2nd of December. Could we move the discussion to City Council? Conniekendall fan, I'm not trying to exclude you altogether; after we come to a consensus I'll ask what you think. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 13:23, 30 November 2018 (MST)
OdysseyFan, I'm sure it was an accident but you need to be very careful when leaving a reply that you do not delete other people's comments. When you left your comment you deleted a very large swathe of text where Conniekendallfan and I had both posted thoughts about this topic. Please be very aware when editing that you do not delete other people's comments - in a place like the Town Hall, where the point is discussion, deleting the discussion is the opposite of what we want to do. I'm pasting the text you deleted below. Would also add that if being a crossover is the criteria for inclusion Jungle Jam should technically be included since Connie, Whit, and Eugene appeared in a radio broadcast version of an episode.

Shouldn't they be listed as Albums rather than Episodes? Rachel Maxwell (talk) 07:35, 28 November 2018 (MST)

EDIT: In retrospect no. I'd really like to discuss how we are going to organize them before we create all the pages so we won't have to move them around later; what if Radio Theatre is an album and the various shows are episodes? Or something like the Last Chance Detectives page where it has its own infobox and we could list out all of the albums, maybe divide them into book adaptations, historical features, and original scripts? The Hiding Place is the only one I can immediately think of that would overlap two categories. Unless you count Luke Reports as being an adaptation of the Bible I guess. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 07:40, 28 November 2018 (MST)
Actually, I think Radio Theatre is (in a way) a radio program, even though I'm not sure if Focus airs them on the radio. So I think they are albums. On your second point, I as well would like to discuss it, too. For instance, are we going to create a whole new infobox specifically for Radio Theatre? LCD isn't really Radio Theatre in my opinion because it has and mentions Odyssey characters.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 19:03, 28 November 2018 (MST)
At one point Focus did air them on the radio - at least some of them, I remember when Squanto came on, but I don’t know that that means they should be albums because then they don’t have episodes - how does that work for credits? We’d have to do a new template basically from scratch. I think they should be episodes of Radio Theatre for simplicity’s sake, but I don’t mind doing t differently if a different way can make more sense. LCD is definitely its own animal and they do currently have their own info box, so RT should probably have one as well. I’m still in favor of using the same cast templates though - or at least a version that takes the credit to their page in some way. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 19:56, 28 November 2018 (MST)

it was an accident but again this is not a FOTF wiki this is about Odyssey. if we could make portals like Wikipedia or tie them together that would be fine but that much content work would be off topic . ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 10:02, 4 December 2018 (MST)

I don't disagree, but my original point was that these dramas are now being included on the Odyssey Club (like the LCD, which are definitely a crossover even though AIO characters only appear in one of the three episodes). Though that doesn't necessarily merit inclusion it does present a strong argument in favor. If we still decide not to include them that's fine, but I do think we should take the opportunity the discussion presents to make specific guidelines regarding what should and should not be included. I think if we decide an episode or album of anything - crossover or not - merits inclusion, it should be included in cast and crew total credits. I'm certainly not advocating that all Focus material be included here - I completely agree that the focus of this Wiki is and should be Adventures in Odyssey - the issue is when there's overlap with something else. Dr. Dobson, with his appearance in #167: “Dobson Comes to Town” technically turns his show into a crossover with AIO but I definitely don't think it should be included on the wiki. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 11:03, 4 December 2018 (MST)
OdysseyFan, Rachel, how about we again make a compromise? Can we expand the scope and purpose of AIOWiki to be about both AIO and Radio Theatre? Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 10:45, 8 December 2018 (MST)

I just don't see it falling within the scope of the wiki. I can't see myself spending more time moderating unrelated content. There are literally hundreds of other things that can be done on the wiki now, as I've posted previously, adding content that's non-AIO just is not something we need to do. ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 11:26, 8 December 2018 (MST)

I can fall either way on this and don't really want to play tiebreaker because I see both sides - if they weren't on the OAClub I'd say no, definitely outside the scope. As it is, since they include them on the club, I see it. As for moderating, the RT episodes could be locked for admin-only edits if they proved to be a problem, but I don't really see them being any more work than an AIO album. The unfortunate aspect is that, to my knowledge, there's nowhere else really to get information on the Radio Theatre - Focus hasn't bothered to make them their own permanent website beyond providing a place to buy the albums - so it's not like there's another source for this. That's really not an argument for inclusion, just a fact. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 10:41, 10 December 2018 (MST)
OdysseyFan has requested a vote. User:Scientific Guy/Radio Theatre has the scope laid out, along with a voting section. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 16:07, 10 December 2018 (MST)

so you already changed it beyond what I see requested here so now you are saying collections beyond the original albums? so what does that mean? you are going to have all the Chronicles of Narnia and the collectors sets? why? that was actually released as a couple different collectors sets. And the Luke Reports you want to have 1 page or 4 or 5 or 7? I'm voting no for the very simple reason that Radio Theater does not relate to Odyssey. and this is the Adventures in Odyssey Wiki. I just don't see where you can ever draw a definitive line of what's not relevant to the wiki once you cross this one. ~ OdysseyFan (talk) 16:28, 10 December 2018 (MST)

Spoilers

Hey I've been trying to work more, and something that really annoys me is the SPOILER-ALERT banner when going through individual episodes quickly.Is there a way to make a spoilers allowed mode? Aioduck29 (talk) 07:36, 7 December 2018 (MST)

Possibly; I'll look into it. Also, remember to add a heading to new discussions. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 10:45, 8 December 2018 (MST)

I mean't to start a new discussions, but must have forgot. I appreciate anything you could do? Aioduck29 (talk) 17:49, 8 December 2018 (MST)

Prayer Request

I would like to ask the fellow users of the wiki to please pray for my mom. She has a condition called Osteoarthritis. To put it simply, the bones in her back are deteriorating. So if you would please pray for her it would be very much appreciated.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 23:13, 7 December 2018 (MST)
Praying. Thanks for telling us. Scientific Guy (talk/edits) 10:45, 8 December 2018 (MST)
Thanks.ConnieKendall fan  talk
Proverbs 13:2020He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.
 (Guestbook) 12:18, 8 December 2018 (MST)

So sorry to hear about this - will be praying for both of you. Rachel Maxwell (talk) 11:08, 10 December 2018 (MST)